Is it true that Mr. Guilding and Mr. O'Halloran had entered into an arrangement with the Natives to take a lease of the reserve P—I telegraphed to Mr. Guilding, and he stated that he had not. I only know of any arrangement by the telegrams which I put in to the Committee yesterday. I saw 1 no arrangement made.
You say you had a telegram from Mr. Guilding, in which he stated that he had made no agreement P—I asked him, and the telegram I put in was the answer.
If Mr. Guilding had completed a lease, and had proceeded to let town sites or dispose of them, would that have been a serious loss to the province P—The province could never lose what it never possessed. It never possessed the 1,000 acres. That belonged to the Natives.
When did the province have notice, or the General Government, that this particular block of 1,000 acres was the property of the Natives ?—The Government never had such notice. They had notice that 1,000 acres were to be selected.
The particular block that Mr. Guilding took the lease of ?—That is the block I always understood the Natives were to have. I informed Sir D. McLean about this reserve.
When was the date about of the survey ?—The Natives made application on the 11th of May,1875, to have it surveyed. They applied to me, first some time in February, 1873. I could not do it in March as 1 was ill, and I had to go to Waikato in April
Did the agreement with the Natives state that the places were to be selected within three months P—It did, but that was a stipulation more on behalf of the Government than on behalf of the Natives.
Not having been selected within three months, and the whole block having been made over to the province, had the province not the right to dispute the selection ?—Decidedly not ; by no rule of law or justice. It was the delay of the Government and not of the Natives. The Government were bound to keep faith with the Natives, and would have been guilty of a breach of :faith had they not done so.
Had the province the right to go to Court to ascertain the facts F—I think not ; I think the province had no right in the matter. There was an agreement made with the Natives, and that was bound to be carried out. Some of the reserves in the Middle Island were not laid off for years after the deeds were signed.
Did you in the month of April mark out or mark on the official plan of the Tairna block, in the Waste Lands Office at Auckland, another place as the site where the 1,000 acres was to be taken ? —I do not know where it was taken; I might do so. Mr. Tole might say, where is such and such a block, and ,I might mark out on the paper giving the information as nearly as I could. I got no application from the Government to fix the reserve.
.Afr. Relleston.] Was the purchase made on the spot ?—No ; at Shortland, under the sanction of the Superintendent and Dr. Pollen.
Did you, in April last, in the presence of Mr. Wafters, point out a particular spot on the Tairua block as the place for this reserve P—I might have ; that would not define it. The Natives have the right to select, not me. Casual conversations might take place, and I might make a rough sketch, but whether I put it at the right place or the wrong I cannot say.
Was Mr. Guilding the witness to the one final transaction in which the 1,000 acres were reserved ?—Yes,' I said so yesterday.. I medtioned he was there with several others.
And at that time the position of the reserve was understood ?—It was not definitely fixed. They had the right to select, and they thought the greater portion should be at Pukiore. I am not quite certain how much was to be at one place, and how much at another; it was left open.
The Chairman.] You think the Government ought not to have been warned immediately where it was P—I considered I was carrying out my instructions. It was suggested by me that these reserves should be made inalienable, and I received instructions to make them wherever necessary.
You think if a reserve was likely to be valuable as a town site, that the Government ought not to have known about it P—The Natives had the right to select 1,000 acres ; it was bought subject to that. It would have been a most unjust act, and a breach of faith, not to have carried out that arrangement
And your officer had a right to go and lease without the Government knowing what piece was taken ?—Anybody had a perfect right to go and lease it; the Natives have the right to lease it.
With regard to the Hikutaia block,- what tribe does that belong to P—It was disputed between Ngatipu and Ngatikaraua ; the Court made an arbitrary division of it.
131.—How many blocks did the Court give them P—Whangamata Nos. 1, 3, and 5 were alienable; Hikutaia Nos. 2 and 3 were alienable. The other blocks, Whangamata, Nos. 2 and 4, were made inalienable by the Court; Hikutaia No. 1 was made inalienable by the Court.
You purchased from the Natives the Hikutaia block P—I purchased from the Natives for the Government the Hikutaia 2 and 3, and Whangamata 1, 3, and 5 blocks.
You purchased the lease of ,one of the Hikutaia blocks for yourself P—I with others got a lease of the block that was inalienable, or rather of a portion of it ; the part the Natives did not want.
Did you, as a Government Agent, ask the Government before you did so P—I was not acting as Government Agent. I was merely acting as Land Purchase Agent. I only buy the blocks I am instructed to buy. I was never instructed to buy No. 1. I could not buy what was inalionv.hlo. It was only a portion of it which was leased for township purposes. It was open for anybody else to do so. There was no fraud or wrong,done to the public in the matter.
Then you did not consider that it was necessary for the Government to try to protect their own interests by getting the case as to the 1,000 acres inquired into by the Supreme Court P—I considered you did me great injustice. It was a most arbitrary and unconstitutional act on your part (excuse me for saying so). The propoicourse would have been to complain to the Colonial Secretary, and to have asked for a Commission of inquiry into my conduct, if it was as you alleged.
You think that,the Superintendent of the province, in going to the Supreme Court of the colony to ascertain the rights of the inhabitants of the province, acted in an unconstitutional manner ? —There was no occasion to go there. You could have been furnished with all the information, which
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